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PostPosted: Wed 02 May 2012 8:46 am 
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This is a follow-up on a thread I posted a while ago on broad and slender consonants (but I can't seem to find anymore). At the time Lughaidh advised me to “smile” when pronouncing a slender b and f, but that advice hasn't really helped much.

The letters I am still having trouble with are b, c, f, g and p.

I'll just use the letter b as an example for now. When there is a broad or slender glide, there isn't any problem. There is an obvious difference between the b in buí and the b in beoir. But what about bán and bean? To me, the only difference between bán and bean is the vowel.

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PostPosted: Wed 02 May 2012 12:54 pm 
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Quote:
This is a follow-up on a thread I posted a while ago on broad and slender consonants (but I can't seem to find anymore). At the time Lughaidh advised me to “smile” when pronouncing a slender b and f, but that advice hasn't really helped much.

The letters I am still having trouble with are b, c, f, g and p.


slender c is roughly a ky-sound as in "cue".
Slender g is roughly a gy-sound... I can't find samples of that in English right now

Quote:
I'll just use the letter b as an example for now. When there is a broad or slender glide, there isn't any problem. There is an obvious difference between the b in buí and the b in beoir. But what about bán and bean? To me, the only difference between bán and bean is the vowel.


depends on your dialect, but in Ulster we'd say:
bán like bwaan (bwehn) (w glide, long a/ay/eh sound)
bean like "bann" (smiling, short a)
(listen to them here http://www.forvo.com/user/Lughaidh/ )

in other dialects, I'd say:
bán like bawn with a long aw sound
bean like "bann" (just as in Ulster)

Maybe Bríd could record them on Forvo? The difference is very clear once you know :D

I've recorded the sounds here (click on the symbols):
http://annexedicoirlandais.free.fr/sons/sons.html

the broad consonants are normally followed by a small gamma (ɣ) in IPA and most of the slender ones are followed by a small j (just ask if you have a problem).

I've recorded words here http://www.forvo.com/user/Lughaidh/ by pairs, whose only difference is the broad/slender consonant:
faoi/fí
peaca/paca
gall/geall
cúis/ciumhais...

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PostPosted: Wed 02 May 2012 4:07 pm 
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Some of these differences can be really hard to hear when you're just starting out. They're subtle differences in sound that we really don't have in English, so our ears aren't trained to notice them (which, of course, makes them hard to reproduce as well). Lughaidh's advice to "smile" is very good. Basically, the lips are tighter and slightly spread, which does produce a different sound, albeit a subtle one.

If Bríd can make a recording, that would be great...just be aware that the difference probably won't sound as marked to your ears as it would to a native speaker, or to someone who's been listening to native speakers for a long time.

Redwolf


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PostPosted: Wed 02 May 2012 6:20 pm 
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My Conamara version -
http://www.box.com/s/7fa2de9e4b4aa5827ae8

This are the Forvo ones tagged so they are together -
http://www.forvo.com/languages/ga/tag/b ... betically/

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It is recommended that you always wait for three to agree on a translation.
I speak Connemara Irish, and my input will often reflect that.
I will do an mp3 file on request for short translations.

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PostPosted: Wed 02 May 2012 7:30 pm 
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Lughaidh wrote:
faoi/fí
peaca/paca
gall/geall
cúis/ciumhais...

I'm ok with these words. Having a broad consonant next to a slender vowel (or vice versa) really brings out the difference between the sounds. But when the consonant and vowel are both broad (or both slender), that's when the problems start.

bó/bí
cá/cé
fós/fios
gá/gé
pá/pé

Is there any difference in how these consonants are pronounced, or is it just the vowels that change?

Bríd Mhór wrote:

This helped a lot. The slender b in bean came out very clear.

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PostPosted: Wed 02 May 2012 8:13 pm 
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Mick wrote:
Lughaidh wrote:
faoi/fí
peaca/paca
gall/geall
cúis/ciumhais...

I'm ok with these words. Having a broad consonant next to a slender vowel (or vice versa) really brings out the difference between the sounds. But when the consonant and vowel are both broad (or both slender), that's when the problems start.

bó/bí
cá/cé
fós/fios
gá/gé
pá/pé

Is there any difference in how these consonants are pronounced, or is it just the vowels that change?



I'm a little unclear as to what you mean by this. A broad consonant will always be next to a broad vowel and a slender consonant will always be next to a slender vowel. It's those vowels that mark the consonants as "broad" or "slender."

There are a few exceptions: Some words that were originally compounds may not follow the "caol le caol" rule. Also "r" is always pronounced as broad at the beginning of a word.

Redwolf


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PostPosted: Wed 02 May 2012 8:41 pm 
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Mick wrote:
bó/bí
cá/cé
fós/fios
gá/gé
pá/pé


http://www.box.com/s/0115ba70fac92cb4b1d3

_________________
___________________________________________________________

It is recommended that you always wait for three to agree on a translation.
I speak Connemara Irish, and my input will often reflect that.
I will do an mp3 file on request for short translations.

___________________________________________________________


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PostPosted: Wed 02 May 2012 10:05 pm 
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Posts: 560
Redwolf wrote:
I'm a little unclear as to what you mean by this. A broad consonant will always be next to a broad vowel and a slender consonant will always be next to a slender vowel. It's those vowels that mark the consonants as "broad" or "slender."Redwolf

Redwolf, I was talking about the sounds not the spelling. The vowel in faoi is a slender sound (same sound as í) and this really emphasises the broad f. Faoi sounds like "fuh-ee" or "fwee."

But I can't hear the broad f in fós. It's not pronunced "fuh-ose" or "fwose" or anything like that.

Bríd Mhór wrote:

Thanks for making the recordings, and don't worry about the dialect difference, it's just the consonant sounds that I'm after. Unfortunately, I still can't hear the difference, but I saved this file and I'm going to practice copying your pronunciation.

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PostPosted: Wed 02 May 2012 11:03 pm 
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Mick wrote:
I still can't hear the difference


Is it the "F" only that you have a problem with?

Probably because it is not exactly like the English F, I don't know.
There are over 260 of them here to practice with -
http://www.forvo.com/languages-pronunci ... /F/page-1/

_________________
___________________________________________________________

It is recommended that you always wait for three to agree on a translation.
I speak Connemara Irish, and my input will often reflect that.
I will do an mp3 file on request for short translations.

___________________________________________________________


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PostPosted: Wed 02 May 2012 11:27 pm 
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Joined: Sun 28 Aug 2011 8:44 pm
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Location: Santa Cruz Mountains, California, USA
Mick wrote:
Redwolf wrote:
I'm a little unclear as to what you mean by this. A broad consonant will always be next to a broad vowel and a slender consonant will always be next to a slender vowel. It's those vowels that mark the consonants as "broad" or "slender."Redwolf

Redwolf, I was talking about the sounds not the spelling. The vowel in faoi is a slender sound (same sound as í) and this really emphasises the broad f. Faoi sounds like "fuh-ee" or "fwee."

But I can't hear the broad f in fós. It's not pronunced "fuh-ose" or "fwose" or anything like that.

Bríd Mhór wrote:

Thanks for making the recordings, and don't worry about the dialect difference, it's just the consonant sounds that I'm after. Unfortunately, I still can't hear the difference, but I saved this file and I'm going to practice copying your pronunciation.


I think you're confusing the terms "broad" and "slender" with "long" and "short." The vowel sound í (or, in your example, "aoi") is a "long" sound, not a "broad" sound.

Redwolf


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