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PostPosted: Sat 04 Aug 2012 3:21 pm 
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Hey All =)

New to the forum. I have this fantastic name, Céibhionn, and I've been able to find only sparing guidance online regarding the correct pronunciation of its sound. Most of what I've seen is what is typically offered for international names, a rough and often inaccurate approximation through English phonemes. I've been trying to get a better handle on the details, and I have a few questions:

I'm unclear on the spoken difference between broad and slender "c" and between broad and slender "n" and "nn" at the end of a name and how the sounds would be formed and distinguished from one another.

I'm unclear on when and why the y-glide is used following a slender consonant and how strong the sound should be, specifically whether this name would have a "kay" or "kyay" and "vuh" or "vyuh" sound. Thus far, it seems that most sources say the initial c sound should not have it, and the v sound could have it or not.

Also, the e has a fada, so my understanding is that it should take precedence over the i giving an "ay" sound as in English "day" (though I could be wrong), but I'm unclear on the -io- later... neither is accented so does one or the other take precedence? Are the combined to form a new sound? Is there a true equivalent in English pronunciation or is it a unique sound?

Lastly, how would the pronunciation change depending on whether you were in Munster or Connemara? Would someone from Mayo say this name the same way as someone from Cork?

Many Thanks!!! =)


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PostPosted: Sat 04 Aug 2012 3:41 pm 
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Céibhionn > roughly "KYAY-vunn" (but it doesn't go as far as a full y-sound, after the k).
in phonological transcription /k'e:v'uN/

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PostPosted: Sun 05 Aug 2012 5:19 pm 
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Thank you for the rough pronunciation.. I'm looking though to get a better understanding of why it's pronounced the way it is... Can anyone help me understand the y-glides? why are they used after some slender consonants and not others? This pronunciation says to use it after the c but not the v sound... other sources online have done the reverse.. How is it determined? Can anyone offer any insight on the other questions I asked? Many thanks agin!


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PostPosted: Sun 05 Aug 2012 5:31 pm 
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Quote:
Can anyone help me understand the y-glides?


it's not a glide in this case, but I don't know any better way to show the palatalised c since it doesn't exist in English...

Quote:
This pronunciation says to use it after the c but not the v sound... other sources online have done the reverse.. How is it determined? Can anyone offer any insight on the other questions I asked? Many thanks agin!


Roughly, it depends on the place where the consonant and the following vowels are pronounced, and sometimes on the length of that vowel. There's a y-glide between a slender consonant and a long back vowel ; there's a w (rounded or not, depending on the nature of the consonant, labial or not) glide between a broad consonant and a front vowel ; in the other cases, there's no glide, but the consonants still are broad or slender.

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PostPosted: Sun 05 Aug 2012 6:17 pm 
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Hi. Welcome to ILF. :wave:

The y glide is always there, as is the w glide, but it stands out more in juxtaposition with an opposite vowel, i.e., a y glide (slender consonant) is clearest next to a broad vowel (a, o, u) and a w glide (broad consonant) is clearest next to a slender vowel (i, e).

Here I would say KAY is also fine for without writing KYAY, i.e., KAY-vun /k´e:w´əN/ (where w´ is a v sound), but it is a matter of personal style/taste.

Slender bh is a v sound, whereas broad bh is a w sound, so there shouldn't be any need to put in an explicit y glide (but you might if you were from Munster, where the broad and slender bh are two different v sounds.)

As for the other questions, any long vowel tends to overshadow a glide vowel. In this case, you could just consider -ibhi- to be a v sound. Irish has a spelling convention that dictates putting a slender vowel both before and after a consonant cluster where other languages would only put one after, and the same for broad vowel - Caol le caol agus leathan le leathan.

A broad c next to a slender vowel sounds like the que- in "question" or the qui- in "quiz".

A slender c next to a broad vowel sounds like cu- in "cute".

Broad n and nn both tend to be pronounced /N/ in Connemara (and Ulster?) but may be /ŋ/ in Munster.

Slender n is like the n in "any". No strong y sound.

Slender nn is like the first n in "union", with a strong y sound, or at the end of a word like the gn in French montagne (like a spanish ñ).

-io- is pronounced variably like oo in "book", like the oo in "kook", like i in "pit", and like yo- in "yon", depending on the word, even within the same dialect. Because there is no síneadh fada on either, dominance depends very much on the neighbouring consonants, e.g., iontach EEN-tukh /i:Ntəx/, iondúil OON-dool /u:Ndu:l´/, fionn FIN /fiN/, sionnach SHON-ukh /s´uNəx/ or SHIN-ukh /s´iNəx/, ionann UN-un /aNəN/ in Connemara.

If it were -íonn then the i would dominate and the pronunciation could be represented by either EEN /i:N/ or EE-un /i:əN/, depending on whether you recognise the glide as being a natural part of the N sound or feel a need to explicitly represent it (though I don't think it is really two separate syllables, more like one and a half).

It is also important to be aware that the ay in "day" in English is actually a diphthong /ei/ but the Irish language é is a pure long vowel /e:/ (this is complicated somewhat by the fact that Hiberno-English uses a pure long vowel for ay in "day", i.e., /de:/, so be sure to say "day" with an Irish accent. ;) )

(Crossed with Lughaidh, but I'm saying the same thing only in more detail. ;) )

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WARNING: Intermediate speaker - await further opinions, corrections and adjustments before acting on my advice.
My "specialty" is Connemara Irish, particularly Cois Fhairrge dialect.
Is fearr Gaeilge ḃriste ná Béarla cliste, cinnte, aċ i ḃfad níos fearr aríst í Gaeilge ḃinn ḃeo na nGaeltaċtaí.
Gaeilge Chonnacht (GC), go háraid Gaeilge Chois Fhairrge (GCF), agus Gaeilge an Chaighdeáin Oifigiúil (CO).


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PostPosted: Sun 05 Aug 2012 6:25 pm 
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This is way out of my league, but perhaps it would be helpful to do a sound file? Would that help anything along?

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PostPosted: Sun 05 Aug 2012 8:34 pm 
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Quote:
The y glide is always there, as is the w glide,


they aren't always there, consonants are palatalized or velarized or bilabialized, but it doesn't mean there's always a glide...

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PostPosted: Sun 05 Aug 2012 8:40 pm 
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It's not a name I'm familiar with so I'll leave the soundfile to somebody else.

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It is recommended that you always wait for three to agree on a translation.
I speak Connemara Irish, and my input will often reflect that.
I will do an mp3 file on request for short translations.

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PostPosted: Sun 05 Aug 2012 11:00 pm 
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Bríd Mhór wrote:
It's not a name I'm familiar with so I'll leave the soundfile to somebody else.


I found myself wondering if it's an attempt to back-phoneticize "Kevin," possibly done by someone who doesn't realize that "Kevin" is an Anglicization of "Caoimhín."

Redwolf


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PostPosted: Sun 05 Aug 2012 11:34 pm 
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Quote:
I found myself wondering if it's an attempt to back-phoneticize "Kevin," possibly done by someone who doesn't realize that "Kevin" is an Anglicization of "Caoimhín."


yes, and who doesn't know how to spell or pronounce Irish, because Céibhionn can't be pronounced like "Kevin" :)

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