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PostPosted: Wed 28 Sep 2011 6:51 pm 
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Breandán wrote:
:idea: It just struck me that the process of "translation" on the forums is a bit like choosing clothing at a shop, you try this with that to see how they fit and if they go together, then you try something else to see if it will go better. Hopefully you'll end up with an outfit you can wear for life. In the end it may be more a case of personal taste than "correctness".


Well observed!


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PostPosted: Wed 28 Sep 2011 8:15 pm 
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Breandán wrote:
Braoin has used the article with áilleacht, i..e., leis an áilleacht versus le háilleacht. Perhaps the long modifier requires it? Or can it be either? What do others think about it?

I don’t think it’s needed. In this instance, the definite article feels the same to me in Irish as it does in English, which changes the meaning of the phrase (though not radically so). I prefer it without the article here.


Quote:
Okay so what I think I'd do if I wanted to keep the "Our" in it is I would use "Tá ár" instead of "Tá an" right?! Does "Tá ár" mean Our & "Tá an" me The?

means ‘is’ (or ‘are’). In Irish, the verb always comes first in the sentence. Ár does indeed mean ‘our’, and an means ‘the’.

Quote:
what is the difference between "dhár" & "do na"?

Dhár is a dialectal form of dár, which is do ‘to/for’ + ár ‘our’. In do na, the second word, na, is the definite article in the plural (an is the singular).

So an croí ‘the heart’ (singular); but na súile ‘the eyes’ (plural).

Quote:
I see that you said the "do na" is more Irish but does it mean the same thing?

It means the same, yes. In English, when discussing parts of the body, you nearly always use possessive adjectives to qualify them: you say “I’m washing my hands”, “I cut my finger”, etc. In Irish, it’s more common to use simply the definite form: “I’m washing the hands”, “I cut the finger”, etc. The meaning is the same as in English.

In this case, you can choose freely in Irish whether you want ‘our eyes’ or ‘the eyes’. I wouldn’t even say ‘the eyes’ is more natural Irish than ‘our eyes’ here, though in many structures it definitely is. In this example, though, I’d say they’re equal; neither feels un-Irish.

Quote:
Oh & I noticed that one of the words have a different letter placing, Breandán has "gcroí" & Chaitríona has "croí" whats the difference in that also?

That’s purely grammatical. It’s a process called eclipsis.

Many centuries ago, before Old Irish, the sequence of a nasal followed by an unvoiced stop or f (that is, n or m followed by a p, t, or c—the latter always pronounced as a k, never as an s) developed into the voiced counterpart of the stop.

So, nc became g; mp became b; and nt became d. This took place inside words (as is common in languages): so the word idir ‘between’ is cognate to Latin inter-, and cúig(e) ‘five’ is cognate to Latin quinque, which is easy to see once you know that d is the Irish outcome of nt, and g is the outcome of nc (or, as here, of nqu[e]). But unlike in most languages where such changes happen, in the Celtic languages, the changes also happened and stuck across word boundaries.

So if you had a word that originally ended in n or m, and then the next word begins in a p, t, or c, then that gets screwed up, too.

Now, the word ár was at that point something like *áron, and croí begins with a c. So (ignoring the spaces between the words, and the fact that croí is not how that word would have looked two thousand years ago), *ároncroí became *árogroí. This concept of the first consonant in a word being voiced like that because of a previous word is what is known as eclipsis.

At some point, *áron lost its final syllable and became just ár, but the effect it had on the following word still lingered on. So people continued to say the g instead of a c. They couldn’t quite figure out how to best represent that in writing for many hundred years, but nowadays it’s consistently written so that you first write the consonant spoken (g), and then the ‘real’ consonant, the one that the word begins with if it’s not next to a word that triggers eclipsis.

So when you write ár gcroí, the c is silent—it’s just there to let you know that the word actually begins with a c; the c has just been eclipsed into a g.

The definite article an, conversely, never ended in a nasal consonant, so no such change ever took place there: an croí just remains an croí.


I hope that explains it understandably. :)

_________________
Not a native speaker.

Always wait for at least three people to agree on a translation, especially if it’s for something permanent.

My translations are usually GU (Ulster Irish), unless CO (Standard Orthography) is requested.


Last edited by kokoshneta on Thu 29 Sep 2011 10:29 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Wed 28 Sep 2011 10:25 pm 
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Very informative explanation, kk. grma..

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PostPosted: Fri 30 Sep 2011 4:38 pm 
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Quote:
Okay so what I think I'd do if I wanted to keep the "Our" in it is I would use "Tá ár" instead of "Tá an" right?! Does "Tá ár" mean Our & "Tá an" me The?

Quote:
means ‘is’ (or ‘are’). In Irish, the verb always comes first in the sentence. Ár does indeed mean ‘our’, and an means ‘the’.


So if Ár means Our then why do I need the Tá in front? Sense its "Our hearts are.." there is no is or are..?

Quote:
what is the difference between "dhár" & "do na"?

Quote:
Dhár is a dialectal form of dár, which is do ‘to/for’ + ár ‘our’. In do na, the second word, na, is the definite article in the plural (an is the singular).

So an croí ‘the heart’ (singular); but na súile ‘the eyes’ (plural).


So which one would be best to use in this type of situation/writing?!


Quote:
I see that you said the "do na" is more Irish but does it mean the same thing?

Quote:
It means the same, yes. In English, when discussing parts of the body, you nearly always use possessive adjectives to qualify them: you say “I’m washing my hands”, “I cut my finger”, etc. In Irish, it’s more common to use simply the definite form: “I’m washing the hands”, “I cut the finger”, etc. The meaning is the same as in English.

In this case, you can choose freely in Irish whether you want ‘our eyes’ or ‘the eyes’. I wouldn’t even say ‘the eyes’ is more natural Irish than ‘our eyes’ here, though in many structures it definitely is. In this example, though, I’d say they’re equal; neither feels un-Irish.


So dhár would actually mean "Our eyes" & do na would be "the eyes"? If thats the case then I would want to use dhár right?! sense I want it to say "our eyes"

Quote:
Oh & I noticed that one of the words have a different letter placing, Breandán has "gcroí" & Chaitríona has "croí" whats the difference in that also?

Quote:
That’s purely grammatical. It’s a process called eclipsis.

Many centuries ago, before Old Irish, the sequence of a nasal followed by an unvoiced stop or f (that is, n or m followed by a p, t, or c—the latter always pronounced as a k, never as an s) developed into the voiced counterpart of the stop.

So, nc became g; mp became b; and nt became d. This took place inside words (as is common in languages): so the word idir ‘between’ is cognate to Latin inter-, and cúig(e) ‘five’ is cognate to Latin quinque, which is easy to see once you know that d is the Irish outcome of nt, and g is the outcome of nc (or, as here, of nqu[e]). But unlike in most languages where such changes happen, in the Celtic languages, the changes also happened and stuck across word boundaries.

So if you had a word that originally ended in n or m, and then the next word begins in a p, t, or c, then that gets screwed up, too.

Now, the word ár was at that point something like *áron, and croí begins with a c. So (ignoring the spaces between the words, and the fact that croí is not how that word would have looked two thousand years ago), *ároncroí became *árogroí. This concept of the first consonant in a word being voiced like that because of a previous word is what is known as eclipsis.

At some point, *áron lost its final syllable and became just ár, but the effect it had on the following word still lingered on. So people continued to say the g instead of a c. They couldn’t quite figure out how to best represent that in writing for many hundred years, but nowadays it’s consistently written so that you first write the consonant spoken (g), and then the ‘real’ consonant, the one that the word begins with if it’s not next to a word that triggers eclipsis.

So when you write ár gcroí, the c is silent—it’s just there to let you know that the word actually begins with a c; the c has just been eclipsed into a g.

The definite article an, conversely, never ended in a nasal consonant, so no such change ever took place there: an croí just remains an croí.


I hope that explains it understandably. :)


So then I would simply keep it "an croi" right?

& thanks sooo much for this break down. I'm actually kinda getting an idea of these things now like a little understanding, keyword little lol :)


So I'm just going to put the quote on this page now also.
"Our hearts are overflowing with a beauty our eyes could never see"

A final translation would be awesome but if not all this help is well helping!! lol :clap:


Ohh sorry if I didn't do the quoting right. I'm new at this lol


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PostPosted: Fri 30 Sep 2011 5:20 pm 
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heather304 wrote:
kokoshneta wrote:
Tá means ‘is’ (or ‘are’). In Irish, the verb always comes first in the sentence. Ár does indeed mean ‘our’, and an means ‘the’.

So if Ár means Our then why do I need the Tá in front? Sense its "Our hearts are.." there is no is or are..?
The answer to that question is in the quote you made right above it. "In Irish, the verb always comes first in the sentence."

"Our hearts are ..." = Tá ár gcroí ... See? :D

The point people are making about the ár versus an is that while in English "the" could not easily replace "our" in this quote, in Irish the quote would make just as much sense with either. But since you have your heart set on "our" let's go with that.


I think our candidates so far are:

1. Ar meisce leis an áilleacht nach mbíonn na súile in ann a fheiceáil atá ár gcroí. (Braoin)

2. Tá ár gcroí ag cur thar maoil le háilleacht nach mbeadh ár súile in ann a bhrath choíchin. (Breandán)

3. Ag cur thar maoil le háilleacht nach mbeadh ár súile in ann a bhrath choíchin atá ár gcroí. (Breandán)

4. Tá ár gcroí ag cur thar maoil le háilleacht nárbh fhéidir dhár súile a bhrath choíchin. (C. Uí Loideáin) - or the same inverted, of course.

Does any one have preferences for one or another amongst them? Or have something totally new to offer?

_________________

WARNING: Intermediate speaker - await further opinions, corrections and adjustments before acting on my advice.
My "specialty" is Connemara Irish, particularly Cois Fhairrge dialect.
Is fearr Gaeilge ḃriste ná Béarla cliste, cinnte, aċ i ḃfad níos fearr aríst í Gaeilge ḃinn ḃeo na nGaeltaċtaí.
Gaeilge Chonnacht (GC), go háraid Gaeilge Chois Fhairrge (GCF), agus Gaeilge an Chaighdeáin Oifigiúil (CO).


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PostPosted: Fri 30 Sep 2011 7:22 pm 
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Breandán wrote:
heather304 wrote:
kokoshneta wrote:
Tá means ‘is’ (or ‘are’). In Irish, the verb always comes first in the sentence. Ár does indeed mean ‘our’, and an means ‘the’.

So if Ár means Our then why do I need the Tá in front? Sense its "Our hearts are.." there is no is or are..?
The answer to that question is in the quote you made right above it. "In Irish, the verb always comes first in the sentence."

"Our hearts are ..." = Tá ár gcroí ... See? :D

The point people are making about the ár versus an is that while in English "the" could not easily replace "our" in this quote, in Irish the quote would make just as much sense with either. But since you have your heart set on "our" let's go with that.


I think our candidates so far are:

1. Ar meisce leis an áilleacht nach mbíonn na súile in ann a fheiceáil atá ár gcroí. (Braoin)

2. Tá ár gcroí ag cur thar maoil le háilleacht nach mbeadh ár súile in ann a bhrath choíchin. (Breandán)

3. Ag cur thar maoil le háilleacht nach mbeadh ár súile in ann a bhrath choíchin atá ár gcroí. (Breandán)

4. Tá ár gcroí ag cur thar maoil le háilleacht nárbh fhéidir dhár súile a bhrath choíchin. (C. Uí Loideáin) - or the same inverted, of course.

Does any one have preferences for one or another amongst them? Or have something totally new to offer?


I thought that Braoins used the word drunk in it though & I would like to change "drunk" to "overflowing". & I think I really like the Tá ár for the beginning, it's pretty & I kinda understand it lol :) I think my two favorite (looks wise) would be #2 & #4 so far. & Breandán I notice that the ending changes between yours & C. Uí Loideáin translation after the word háilleacht, I'm curious as to why. Is it just another choice thing? same meaning just different look or something?!? I love how close we're getting to the final result everyone! Thanks SOOOO MUCH!! :clap: :D


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PostPosted: Fri 30 Sep 2011 10:44 pm 
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Gumbi wrote:
heather304 wrote:
sorry if I'm starting to bug people but I now have a question.. why is Braoins translation totally different from Breandáns & C. Uí Loideáin? I would like to keep the word "Our" in the beginning also and change the word "drunk" to "overflowing". I honestly dont care how pretty it is (tho it would be nice if it was pretty lol) I just want it to be 100% correct! Also if someone could possibly help me with pronuciation on the quote, that'd be awesome! thanks


p.s. Oh & after I get my tattoo, I'll post a pic so everyone can see how it turned out!! :D :yes:

Just as in English, there are many different ways to say the same thing. We're just discussing the best way to accurately translate what you've given us.



100% correct! A difficult thing at the best of times when taking ideas from English into understandable Irish. As Gumbi says, we can only discuss the most accurate translation. I must admit much of the scientific / technical explanations given here are beyond my understanding.

Let me have a look and find out if I can see the concept here, rather than be looking at the English language words - and of course keeping in mind that this is going on skin and needs therefore to be as short as possible:

Your original request:
Our hearts are drunk with a beauty our eyes could never see
...you changed your mind on 'drunk' and made it 'overflowing'
therefore:
Our hearts are overflowing with a beauty our eyes could never see
...this changes things a bit...

...overflowing with a beauty.... hmmm not an easy one to think of in Gaeilge!! Does that mean overflowing with 'a beauty' or because of 'a beauty' ... hmmmm???? I'll choose the literal 'with a' beauty... as suggested in the English.

...our hearts.... our eyes.... the Gaeilge has her own way of putting these across....

...our eyes could never see... suggesting the past...
The present would require ... our eyes can never see / our eyes will never be able to see.

There are a good many grand suggestions in the pot now, so here's another for the mix - based on what I can figure out from this new 'original' sentence:

Tá ár gcroí ag brúchtadh leis an áilleacht nár fhéad na súile a fheiceáil riamh.

If I have it wrong and the 'could' is not intended to suggest the past.... then changing the above to:

Tá ár gcroí ag brúchtadh leis an áilleacht nach bhféadfaidh na súile a fheiceáil go deo.

Personally, I'd kill the idea of 'ability to see' for the purposes of Gaeilge and just put it:
Tá ár gcroí ag brúchtadh leis an áilleacht nach bhfaca na súile riamh.
or, depending on the real meaning of that 'could':
Tá ár gcroí ag brúchtadh leis an áilleacht nach bhfeicfidh na súile go deo.

...anyway that's the best I can put forward so hopefully a nice translation will be pulled from the pot - best of luck!

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Bí cinnte de go nglacfaidh triúr le gach aistriúchán a thabharfar.
Be sure to get three in agreement with a translation given.


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PostPosted: Fri 30 Sep 2011 11:19 pm 
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I, on the other hand, have interpreted the "could never" to mean "would never be able to", i.e., not the past but the conditional "no matter what you do, you could never make them see."

_________________

WARNING: Intermediate speaker - await further opinions, corrections and adjustments before acting on my advice.
My "specialty" is Connemara Irish, particularly Cois Fhairrge dialect.
Is fearr Gaeilge ḃriste ná Béarla cliste, cinnte, aċ i ḃfad níos fearr aríst í Gaeilge ḃinn ḃeo na nGaeltaċtaí.
Gaeilge Chonnacht (GC), go háraid Gaeilge Chois Fhairrge (GCF), agus Gaeilge an Chaighdeáin Oifigiúil (CO).


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PostPosted: Sat 01 Oct 2011 9:04 am 
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^ Same here. In the context, it seems to be the only thing that makes sense.

Braoin wrote:
Personally, I'd kill the idea of 'ability to see' for the purposes of Gaeilge and just put it:
Tá ár gcroí ag brúchtadh leis an áilleacht nach bhfaca na súile riamh.
or, depending on the real meaning of that 'could':
Tá ár gcroí ag brúchtadh leis an áilleacht nach bhfeicfidh na súile go deo.

I love this!

Apart from the tense (where the conditional would be the right thing to use, rather than past or present), I think this is the best suggestion so far. In this particular wording, though, I think I’d lose the article on áilleacht. It seems too specific here, like we’re all supposed to have already heard of this particular beauty before; I like it better without. (And as above, I’ll use ár súile—it doesn’t seem unnatural here, and the OP seems to prefer it to na súile)

Tá ár gcroí ag brúchtadh le háilleacht nach bhfeicfeadh ár súile riamh

_________________
Not a native speaker.

Always wait for at least three people to agree on a translation, especially if it’s for something permanent.

My translations are usually GU (Ulster Irish), unless CO (Standard Orthography) is requested.


Last edited by kokoshneta on Wed 05 Oct 2011 5:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Wed 05 Oct 2011 4:10 pm 
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So Breandán is 100% correct about the meaning part. Its not past nor present, it's just something there that can not be seen, but it's there. & is this suggestion

"Tá ár gcroí ag brúchtadh le háilleacht nach bhfeicfeadh ár súile riamh"

the same meaning or has it been changed some?! If its been changed could you please point out what & where because I can't read Gaelic lol. I was wondering if when I get the final translation (the one I'll use for the tattoo) if someone could help me learn the pronunciation of it that'd be awesome!

Thanks for all & everyones help! :D :clap:


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