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PostPosted: Fri 08 Aug 2014 8:24 pm 
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Hello all. Have many here studied Old Irish in addition to Irish and Gaelic? I was wondering if anyone has much insight as to which "descendent" of Old Irish has kept the most features like the original language. Thanks.


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PostPosted: Fri 08 Aug 2014 8:38 pm 
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It was long said that the West had the older pronunciation (and the north too) and the South, the grammar. I can't speak for SG, but since specialists were able to learn about how OI sounded from Ulster and Connacht speech from the 19th century, I would say those dialects would have kept those elements the best as SG has been influenced by Old Norse in the Hebrides for things like pre-aspiration I think

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PostPosted: Sat 09 Aug 2014 12:46 am 
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Thanks. I have a book on Old Irish and it seems so much more distant from Modern Irish than even Old English from Modern English, or maybe it's just my ignorance.


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PostPosted: Sat 09 Aug 2014 12:17 pm 
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I think really Old Irish is too different from Modern Irish to say that any of the modern dialects are more similar to it. However for Classical Irish (the way the Bards wrote and spoke, it was basically late 12th century Irish, but they kept speaking it until about 1700) Connacht Irish is the closest in pronunciation and Munster is closest in grammar (with both being furthest from it in the other way) and Ulster is the middle for both grammar and pronunciation.

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PostPosted: Sat 09 Aug 2014 3:25 pm 
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I think Donegal Irish has a more archaic pronunciation than Connachta Irish, for instance Connachta lengthens vowels before m, ll, nn while in Old Irish and Donegal Irish they are short.
Donegal Irish doesn't transform vowels as much as the other dialects (which make diphthongs etc). Donegal Irish has kept the distinction between ll and l, nn and n, and sometimes rr and r (older speakers I guess).
Donegal Irish has also kept the relative endings in -s, while Munster has lost them, and Connemara doesn't always use them.
And Donegal Irish also has kept many "more archaic" irregular verbal forms (thig, tchím/go bhfeicim, théid...).
Now, for the synthetic forms of verbs, Munster Irish wins :)
I think Connachta is the dialect that has the smallest number of archaic features (but it doesn't mean it's not a cool dialect anyway!)

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PostPosted: Sat 09 Aug 2014 3:57 pm 
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Lughaidh wrote:
I think Donegal Irish has a more archaic pronunciation than Connachta Irish, for instance Connachta lengthens vowels before m, ll, nn while in Old Irish and Donegal Irish they are short.
Donegal Irish doesn't transform vowels as much as the other dialects (which make diphthongs etc). Donegal Irish has kept the distinction between ll and l, nn and n, and sometimes rr and r (older speakers I guess).

I think, that Old Irish and Classical Irish are different enough that Donegal Irish might be closer to Old Irish, while being further from Classical Irish (correct me if I'm wrong).
Doesn't Donegal Irish have a different quality for the long vowels than Classical Irish and the stress pattern would be different? Classical Irish has stress identical to Connacht Irish (especially the way short vowels are preserved when not under stress).
Classical Irish actual left it as a choice to use the synthetic and analytic forms.

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Ar sgáth a chéile a mhairid na daoine, lag agus láidir, uasal is íseal


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PostPosted: Sat 09 Aug 2014 9:35 pm 
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Quote:
I think, that Old Irish and Classical Irish are different enough that Donegal Irish might be closer to Old Irish, while being further from Classical Irish (correct me if I'm wrong).


For verbal morphology, I think Donegal Irish is closer to Classical Irish simply because Classical Irish is closer in time too. But I think the irregular verbs I mentioned were more or less the same in Old Irish and in Classical Irish.

Doesn't Donegal Irish have a different quality for the long vowels than Classical Irish and the stress pattern would be different? Classical Irish has stress identical to Connacht Irish (especially the way short vowels are preserved when not under stress).

Donegal Irish doesn't change much the quality of long vowels:
á is a: or æː
é is e: or ɛː
í is iː
ó is ɔː (or oː beside a nasal consonant and in certain words like tóg)
ú is uː

The stress pattern, as far as I know, hasn't changed since Old Irish in both Donegal and Connachta Irish: it is on the 1st syllable except in compounds words and in certain loanwords.
It has only changed in Munster Irish, where other syllables can be stressed.
Connachta Irish doesn't preserve unstressed short vowels more than any other dialect, a and e become ə most of the time, i is ɪ, o is ɔ, u is ʊ... and I think it was already like that in Old Irish except when the vowel was at the very end of a word (final a would be pronounced [a] in Old Irish while it's ə in Modern Irish).


Classical Irish actual left it as a choice to use the synthetic and analytic forms.

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Agus is í Gaeilg Ġaoṫ Doḃair is binne
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PostPosted: Sat 09 Aug 2014 10:51 pm 
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Go raibh maith agat a Lughaidh. :good:

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PostPosted: Sun 10 Aug 2014 1:48 am 
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Deirtear gurb é tionchar na Normannach ab chúis don strús ar an tara siolla i nGaoluinn na Mumhan. Bhíodh na Normannaigh i bhfad níos treise agus níos cumhachtaí i nDeisciort na tíre ná i n-aon áit eile agus deirtear go bhfuil graiméár na Mumhan (Corcaigh go háirthe) níos ársa óir go raibh an sgríbhneoireacht go forleathan anso.

Nuair 'thánn duine dh'iarraidh a luach mar fhear léannta dh'fhoilsiú nú a thaispeáint i nGaoluinn úsaideann sé foirmeacha nú litriú seanda.

Mar sin fhéinig, thá an chopail neodrach fós i mbéal na ndaoine (is ea(dh) nú is ed sa tSeana-Ghaoluinn), cé nách n-úsáídtear insa tslí chéana é.

Is minic a dertear "níos sia" in ionad "níos faide (fuide)" i nGaoluinn na Mumhan. I n-aimsir na Seana-Ghaoluinne bhíodh foirm dhifriúil do bheagnach gach céim comparáide.

An mhír "do" insan aimsir chaite, Aimsir ghnáth-chaite agus insan modh coinníollach (do bhí, do bhíodh); ro-, no nú do- insa tSeana-Ghaoluinn. Ní bhfaightear an mhír sin ach amháin le "f" insa chaighdeán, D'fhág, D'fhreastal srl...). Is minic a gheibheann tú "do" i n-áit "a" sa gcoibhneas leis, go háirithe le "f" agus le guta .i. airgead dh'fháilt/ d'fháilt (no- sa tseana Ghaoluinn .i. in salm no-chanaim "the psalm I sing"). Tarlaíonn sé le consain leis anois is aríst go háirithe le frásaíbh seana-bhunaithe (sean-fhocail dob ea iad don chuid is mó) .i. an fód do sheasamh srl...

Thá'n mhír choibhnis thraidisiúnta indíreach coitianta i nGaoluinn na nDéise, bíonn gnáth-fhoirm na Mumhan ann leis "go". Bhíodh an "s"-coibhneaasta ann leis ach ní chloisheá é sin anois faraor.

Fós, thá gnéithe nú iarsmaí do'n uimhr dhé is do'n tuiseal tabharthach uatha is iolra coitianta a ndóthain i nGaeltachtaí na Mumhan, cé go bhfuil deireadh ag teacht leóbhtha. Thá bun-ainmfhocail, na cinn nár thóg an fhoirm thabharthaigh, níos coitianta leis, go háirithe na cinn do chríochnaigh le (a)ainn insa tabharthach .i. guala (Gaoluinn na Mumhan) > gualainn (Gaeilge), ramhann (Gaeilge = ramhainn), iothlann (Gaeilge iothlainn) srl...

Úsáidtear an fhoirm sheanda don bhriathar "feic" i nGaoluinn na Mumhan, c(h)ím (ó ad-chím> do-chím), tchím i nGaeilg na hUladh.

Agus ina theannta san deirimístne "sinn" i n-ionad "muid" agus Bíonn séimhiú leath-gharbh ar m(h) agus "bh".

Ach má tháir ag léamh blúirí do chaint Amhlaoibh Uí Luínse nú do Mhaidhc Dháith nú d'aon fhíor-chainteoir dúchais (duine do chailleag insna 50idí nú insna 60idí, do thiocthá ar ghnéithe seanda a chuirfeadh ana-iúnadh ort go deo. Do chuireag an Ghaoluinn nuair do chuireag na daoine san chun cré.

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Please wait for corrections/ more input from other forum members before acting on advice


I'm familiar with Munster Irish/ Gaolainn na Mumhan (GM) and the Official Standard/an Caighdeán Oifigiúil (CO)


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PostPosted: Thu 21 Aug 2014 3:45 pm 
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An Cionnfhaolach wrote:

Thá'n mhír choibhnis thraidisiúnta indíreach coitianta i nGaoluinn na nDéise, bíonn gnáth-fhoirm na Mumhan ann leis "go". Bhíodh an "s"-coibhneaasta ann leis ach ní chloisheá é sin anois faraor.

Tá cuntas gearr ar an "s"-coibhneasta i Seana-chaint na nDéise (Cuid a haon) agus tá sé le feiscint i leabhar Mhaidhc Dháith.

Quote:
Fós, thá gnéithe nú iarsmaí do'n uimhr dhé is do'n tuiseal tabharthach uatha is iolra coitianta a ndóthain i nGaeltachtaí na Mumhan, cé go bhfuil deireadh ag teacht leóbhtha. Thá bun-ainmfhocail, na cinn nár thóg an fhoirm thabharthaigh, níos coitianta leis, go háirithe na cinn do chríochnaigh le (a)ainn insa tabharthach .i. guala (Gaoluinn na Mumhan) > gualainn (Gaeilge), ramhann (Gaeilge = ramhainn), iothlann (Gaeilge iothlainn) srl...

Tá an ginideach dé fós ann, i gcaint na seanadaoine:

Glúin
Dhá ghlúin
X an dá ghlún.

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The dialect I use is Cork Irish.
Ar sgáth a chéile a mhairid na daoine, lag agus láidir, uasal is íseal


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