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 Post subject: Uimhir Dhé???
PostPosted: Mon 30 Apr 2012 12:39 pm 
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Dia 's Muire dhaoibh a chairde,

This came up in a discussion but I decided to ask in a new thread rather than keeping it on that so people wouldn't be getting off the point.

There are advantages and disadvantages of learning a language naturally .i. hearing and speaking it. One of the disadvantages is when ever gramitical terms are used instead of an example I don't know what's going on. Can anyone explain to me- what is the uimhir dhé. I know its archaic but if someone can give me an example I'll have probably seen it before and be able to put 2+2 together. Any search I did online didn't help much.

do bheinnse fíor- bhuíoch dhaoibh,

Cian

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 Post subject: Re: Uimhir Dhé???
PostPosted: Mon 30 Apr 2012 1:41 pm 
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Basically Irish has three numbers: Singular, Dual and Plural.
It only applies to feminine nouns really.
Example:

aon chos amháin = one foot.
dhá chois = two feet.
trí cosa = three feet.
(I know people usually don't use the plural with numbers and say "trí chos", but this is
just for the example).

So,
cos => nominative singular (1)
cois => nominative dual (2)
cosa => nominative plural (>2)

For masculine nouns it's no different:
aon bhád amháin
dhá bhád
trí báid

The only slight difficulty is in the genitive. Here the dual is the same as the plural.

an dá chos = of the two feet
na dtrí chos = of the three feet

So,
coise = genitive singular
cos = genitive dual
cos = genitive plural

So to sum up. The dual is a special form used after "dhá". In the nominative
it's identical to the singular, except for feminine nouns where you just slenderise
the noun. In the genitive it's the same as the genitive plural.

These days however, people usually don't use a special form for the dual, so the rule is effectively just
that dhá takes the singular in nominative, but the plural in the genitive.

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The dialect I use is Munster Irish, particularly Cork Irish, so words or phrases I use
might not be correct for other areas.:D

Ar sgáth a chéile a mhairid na daoine, lag agus láidir, uasal is íseal


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 Post subject: Re: Uimhir Dhé???
PostPosted: Mon 30 Apr 2012 1:50 pm 
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Joined: Thu 15 Sep 2011 12:06 pm
Posts: 1749
Actually I think the dual form is mandatory in Standard Irish and maybe in most dialects (?) for the following nouns:
bos
bróg
cluas
cos
lámh

and I think older speakers would use it with many other feminine nouns of the 2nd declension.

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Agus is í Gaeilg Ġaoṫ Doḃair is binne
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 Post subject: Re: Uimhir Dhé???
PostPosted: Mon 30 Apr 2012 2:06 pm 
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Posts: 965
Lughaidh wrote:
Actually I think the dual form is mandatory in Standard Irish and maybe in most dialects (?) for the following nouns:
bos
bróg
cluas
cos
lámh

and I think older speakers would use it with many other feminine nouns of the 2nd declension.

That's right actually, those are the "five magic words" that use the dual still. Older people still use it
with 2nd declension words, especially ones ending with -óg in my experience.

_________________
The dialect I use is Munster Irish, particularly Cork Irish, so words or phrases I use
might not be correct for other areas.:D

Ar sgáth a chéile a mhairid na daoine, lag agus láidir, uasal is íseal


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 Post subject: Re: Uimhir Dhé???
PostPosted: Mon 30 Apr 2012 2:13 pm 
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Joined: Fri 09 Mar 2012 6:16 pm
Posts: 1054
Go raibh maith agaibh Lughaidh agus Lon dubh

Are these examples of the Uimhir Dhé? By any chance, Its starting to get abit clearer!

ceann amháin
dhá cheann
trí cinn...srl

bean amháin
beirt bhan
triúr ban

each amháin
dhá eich
trí eich

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Is Fearr súil romhainn ná ḋá ṡúil inár ndiaiḋ
(Amhlaoibh Ó Súilleabháin)

Please wait for corrections/ more input from other forum members before acting on advice


I'm familiar with Munster Irish/ Gaolainn na Mumhan (GM) and the Official Standard/an Caighdeán Oifigiúil (CO)


Last edited by An Cionnfhaolach on Mon 30 Apr 2012 2:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Uimhir Dhé???
PostPosted: Mon 30 Apr 2012 2:33 pm 
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Posts: 965
An Cionnfhaolach wrote:
Go raibh maith agat Lughaidh agus Lon dubh

Are these examples of the Uimhir Dhé? By any chance, Its starting to get abit clearer!

Indeed they are, let's just go through them in turn.
Quote:
ceann amháin
dhá cheann
trí cinn...srl

So ceann is masculine.
ceann = singular
ceann = dual (singular and dual identical for masculine words)
cinn = plural

Quote:
bean amháin
beirt bhan
triúr ban

This is a good example.
So,
bean = nominative singular
bean/mnaoi = nominative dual (mnaoi is the original dual, but rarely said today.)
mná = nominative dual

mná = genitive singular
ban = genitive dual (in genitive dual=plural)
ban = genitive plural

So beirt takes the genitive and since it involves two people it takes the dual, so
beirt bhan.

Triúr takes the genitive and the plural so, Triúr ban.

Quote:
each amháin
dhá eich
trí eich

I would say:
dhá each. As a masculine word, dual = singular in nominative, and dhá takes the dual.

_________________
The dialect I use is Munster Irish, particularly Cork Irish, so words or phrases I use
might not be correct for other areas.:D

Ar sgáth a chéile a mhairid na daoine, lag agus láidir, uasal is íseal


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 Post subject: Re: Uimhir Dhé???
PostPosted: Mon 30 Apr 2012 2:35 pm 
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Joined: Thu 15 Sep 2011 12:06 pm
Posts: 1749
Should be:

dhá each
trí each / trí heich

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Agus is í Gaeilg Ġaoṫ Doḃair is binne
:)


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 Post subject: Re: Uimhir Dhé???
PostPosted: Mon 30 Apr 2012 3:15 pm 
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Joined: Fri 09 Mar 2012 6:16 pm
Posts: 1054
An Lon Dubh wrote:
An Cionnfhaolach wrote:
Go raibh maith agat Lughaidh agus Lon dubh

Are these examples of the Uimhir Dhé? By any chance, Its starting to get abit clearer!

Indeed they are, let's just go through them in turn.
Quote:
ceann amháin
dhá cheann
trí cinn...srl

So ceann is masculine.
ceann = singular
ceann = dual (singular and dual identical for masculine words)
cinn = plural

Quote:
bean amháin
beirt bhan
triúr ban

This is a good example.
So,
bean = nominative singular
bean/mnaoi = nominative dual (mnaoi is the original dual, but rarely said today.)
mná = nominative dual

mná = genitive singular
ban = genitive dual (in genitive dual=plural)
ban = genitive plural

So beirt takes the genitive and since it involves two people it takes the dual, so
beirt bhan.

Triúr takes the genitive and the plural so, Triúr ban.

Quote:
each amháin
dhá eich
trí eich

I would say:
dhá each. As a masculine word, dual = singular in nominative, and dhá takes the dual.


Sár- jab Lon Dubh, Thá sé soiléir dhom anois

mnaoi- tuigim an focal seo úsáidtear é sa dtuiseal tabharthach chomh maith, leis an mnaoi, seachas leis an mbean

Chun cruth deirannach a chur air mar san,

Nuair is focal firinscneach ann úsáidtear an uimhir uatha don bhfocal nauir athá amháin agus dhá i gceist agus ansan úsáidtear an iolra nuair athá trí i gceist. Ach ansan derir go dtagann an tuiseal ginideach i bhfeidhm chomh maith nuair athá beirt, triúr... srl i gceist nuair is focal baininscneach é. ' dtarlaigheannan rud céanda nuair is focal firinscneach ann?: Mar shampla

Fear amháin
beirt fhir???(being ginideach uatha)
triúr fear???- fear being ginideach iolra

nú an bhfuilim caillte?

Focal baininscneach-

fuinneog amháin
dhá fhuinneoig (caolú- cosamhail leis an tuiseal tabharthach?)
trí fhuineoga nú trí fhuinneog

do chonac ansan go bhfuil: bád amháin
dhá bháid
ach, trí báid (gan séimhíú- Dé chúis?)

agus go mbionn trí each sa gcaighdeán ach ansan trí heich ? (mar adubhairt Lughaidh)

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Is Fearr súil romhainn ná ḋá ṡúil inár ndiaiḋ
(Amhlaoibh Ó Súilleabháin)

Please wait for corrections/ more input from other forum members before acting on advice


I'm familiar with Munster Irish/ Gaolainn na Mumhan (GM) and the Official Standard/an Caighdeán Oifigiúil (CO)


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 Post subject: Re: Uimhir Dhé???
PostPosted: Mon 30 Apr 2012 4:14 pm 
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Joined: Tue 06 Sep 2011 7:18 pm
Posts: 576
My knowledge of the Uimhir Dhé is limited to the 5 special nouns lámh, bos, cos, bróg, cluas.

These words are made slender after a preposition or dhá:

Mo dhá láimh
Faoi chois


It seems that this applies nowadays only in set phrases (like faoi chois). I was taught in school that the rule should always be applied but FGB and some grammar books say that the usage is limited to older set phrases.


Am I right about the preposition thing or is this simply the old Tuiseal Tabharthach which would apply to all nouns?
[i gcéin, in ifrinn?]


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 Post subject: Re: Uimhir Dhé???
PostPosted: Mon 30 Apr 2012 4:35 pm 
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Joined: Fri 09 Mar 2012 6:16 pm
Posts: 1054
Scooby wrote:
My knowledge of the Uimhir Dhé is limited to the 5 special nouns lámh, bos, cos, bróg, cluas.

These words are made slender after a preposition or dhá:

Mo dhá láimh
Faoi chois


It seems that this applies nowadays only in set phrases (like faoi chois). I was taught in school that the rule should always be applied but FGB and some grammar books say that the usage is limited to older set phrases.


Am I right about the preposition thing or is this simply the old Tuiseal Tabharthach which would apply to all nouns?
[i gcéin, in ifrinn?]


i'm pretty sure faoi chois is the tuiseal tabharthach, but in saying that, beirt mhnaoi (mnaoi is also used in the tuiseal tabharthach for bean- leis an mnaoi) so the two are probably connected somehow! and I've seen the aibh endings in older documents after numbers, can't think of any example at the moment though. dhá fhichid, dhá tríochad

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Is Fearr súil romhainn ná ḋá ṡúil inár ndiaiḋ
(Amhlaoibh Ó Súilleabháin)

Please wait for corrections/ more input from other forum members before acting on advice


I'm familiar with Munster Irish/ Gaolainn na Mumhan (GM) and the Official Standard/an Caighdeán Oifigiúil (CO)


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