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PostPosted: Sun 01 Apr 2012 12:10 pm 
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A chairde,

Some questions about the Apostles Creed in Irish: different versions or perhaps typos?

In a publication I have from F.A.S. ( Foilseacháin Ábhair Spioradálta ) entitled ‘Na Paidreacha Coitianta’, there appears the Cré na Naspal.

One line is ‘a céasadh ar chros’, should this be ‘a céasadh ar chrois’?

Then we have ‘an tríú lá ó mhairbh’, but on the Cumann na Sagart website they have ’an treas lá ó mhairbh’.

Are there different dialect versions of this prayer? Is this one in the FÁS booklet mostly in the CO but with possibly one or more typos?

One other variant I found is on this site: http://dho.ie/doegen/LA_1213d1
This is from the Doegen Records Web Project and includes a recording.

Are there different ways to spell aon Mhacsan:
Aon-mhacsan
Aonmhac-san
Aonmhacsan
aon Mhacsan?

Finally, is another word for ‘aon-mhac’, Aonghin?

Tá brón orm faoi an iomarca ceisteanna.
Gearóid


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PostPosted: Sun 01 Apr 2012 12:29 pm 
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We are here to answer questions a Ghearóid. Ask as many as you like.

GearoidOH wrote:
One other variant I found is on this site: http://dho.ie/doegen/LA_1213d1
This is from the Doegen Records Web Project and includes a recording.


My first thought was not to go with that as there are mistakes in it.
But the speaker sounds like a native. And the transcript is fairly accurate of what she is saying.
That is not the version I'm familiar with. So there must be dialect variants.


GearoidOH wrote:
One line is ‘a céasadh ar chros’, should this be ‘a céasadh ar chrois’?
.
I would pronounce it as "ar chrois". But standard spelling is a strange thing, so I don't know.

GearoidOH wrote:
Then we have ‘an tríú lá ó mhairbh’, but on the Cumann na Sagart website they have ’an treas lá ó mhairbh’.


treas lá - is what I learnt. But I don't think that "tríú" is wrong either.

GearoidOH wrote:
Are there different ways to spell aon Mhacsan:
Aon-mhacsan
Aonmhac-san
Aonmhacsan
aon Mhacsan?


I don't know which is the right spelling.

GearoidOH wrote:
Aonghin

That's only child (consieved). Boy or girl.

I'd go with Cumann na Sagart one-
http://www.cumannnasagart.ie/cre-na-naspal.html

_________________
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It is recommended that you always wait for three to agree on a translation.
I speak Connemara Irish, and my input will often reflect that.
I will do an mp3 file on request for short translations.

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PostPosted: Sun 01 Apr 2012 4:11 pm 
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I've only got a minute so I'll get back to this.

Firstly, it's Cré na nAspal (or Cré na n-aspal if you want to use a lowercase letter for the 'Apostles' bit).

cros seems to be the standard translation for 'cross' according to the dictionary, although it lists crois too.

Another reason the i might be in crois is that an older dative form is being used.

Either way, both versions can be considered correct.

treas is an older form of tríú - both are correct, I reckon.

In general, you will certainly find alternate versions of prayers, including The Lord's Prayer (The Our Father). I have seen some wildly different versions of this.

The dictionary has aonghin for 'only begotten (child)' and aonmhac for 'only son'. No hyphens there, but I'm not sure about the suffix. There's also a rule about hyphenating the first of two prefixes - but we're talking about a prefix and a suffix here, aren't we?


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PostPosted: Sun 01 Apr 2012 4:18 pm 
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GearoidOH wrote:
In a publication I have from F.A.S. ( Foilseacháin Ábhair Spioradálta ) entitled ‘Na Paidreacha Coitianta’, there appears the Cré na Naspal.

Does it really have a capital N and lower case a on Aspal? If so, there is a typo for starters.

Notice that the Cumann na Sagart site has the correct Cré na nAspal.

The usual standard sequence of ordinal numbers is:

an chéad
an dara
an tríú

Dara is often pronounced darna /dɑ:rNə/ in Connemara. For "twelfth", dóú is used, i.e., an dóú (ceann) déag.

Graiméar Gaeilge na mBráithre Críostaí says:
Quote:
Uaireanta úsáidtear dóú agus treas in ionad dara agus tríú faoi seach.

An Bíobla Naofa has an tríú lá in 1 Corantaigh (1 Corinthians) 15:4). I am not sure of the usage in other dialects but treas is most likely an older form that survives in songs (and creeds ;) ), etc.

"His only begotten son" in Eoin (John) 3:16 is a Aonghin Mic.

(Crossed with Scooby but adds some references that support/supplement what he says.)

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WARNING: Intermediate speaker - await further opinions, corrections and adjustments before acting on my advice.
My "specialty" is Connemara Irish, particularly Cois Fhairrge dialect.
Is fearr Gaeilge ḃriste ná Béarla cliste, cinnte, aċ i ḃfad níos fearr aríst í Gaeilge ḃinn ḃeo na nGaeltaċtaí.
Gaeilge Chonnacht (GC), go háraid Gaeilge Chois Fhairrge (GCF), agus Gaeilge an Chaighdeáin Oifigiúil (CO).


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PostPosted: Sun 01 Apr 2012 6:52 pm 
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Note that tríú has 2 'fadas'.


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PostPosted: Sun 01 Apr 2012 7:01 pm 
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Scooby wrote:
Note that tríú has 2 'fadas'.

Ah, so it does, so it does. :yes: Fixed above. :GRMA:

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WARNING: Intermediate speaker - await further opinions, corrections and adjustments before acting on my advice.
My "specialty" is Connemara Irish, particularly Cois Fhairrge dialect.
Is fearr Gaeilge ḃriste ná Béarla cliste, cinnte, aċ i ḃfad níos fearr aríst í Gaeilge ḃinn ḃeo na nGaeltaċtaí.
Gaeilge Chonnacht (GC), go háraid Gaeilge Chois Fhairrge (GCF), agus Gaeilge an Chaighdeáin Oifigiúil (CO).


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PostPosted: Mon 02 Apr 2012 5:59 am 
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The Scottish Gaelic (Catholic) version uses Mhac-san and treas, so it's probably a matter of dialect and/or older forms as noted:

... agus ann an Iosa Criosda, 'aon Mhac-san, ar Tighearna ...
...
a dh'eirich an treas latha bho an mairbh

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I'm still a learner, so be sure to wait for confirmations/corrections, especially for tattoos.


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PostPosted: Mon 02 Apr 2012 11:44 am 
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Here's what's in the missalette from my local Catholic church in Ireland:

An Chré

Creidim in aon Dia amháin,
an tAthair uilechumhachtach
a rinne neamh agus talamh
agus an uile ní sofheicthe agus dofheicthe.
Agus in aon Tiarna amháin, Íosa Críost, Aon-Mhac Dé,
an té a rugadh ón Athair sula raibh aon saol ann,
Dia ó Dhia, solas ó sholas, fíorDhia ó fhíorDhia;
an té a gineadh agus nach ndearnadh,
agus atá d'aon substaint leis an Athair;
is tríd a rinneadh an uile ní.
Ar ár son-na an cine daonna,
agus ar son ár slánaithe,
thuirling sé ó neamh.
Ionchollaíodh le cumhacht an Spioraid Naoimh é
i mbroinn na Maighdine Muire
agus ghlac sé nádúr daonna.
Céasadh ar an gcrois é freisin ar ár son;
d’fhulaing sé páis faoi Phontius Píoláit
agus adhlacadh é.
D’aiséirigh an treas lá de réir na scrioptúr;
chuaigh suas ar neamh;
tá ina shuí ar dheis an Athar.
Tiocfaidh sé an athuair faoi ghlóir
le breithiúnas a thabhairt ar bheo agus ar mhairbh,
agus ní bheidh deireadh lena ríocht.
Creidim sa Spiorad Naomh,
Tiarna agus bronntóir na beatha,
an té a ghluaiseann ón Athair agus ón Mac.
Tugtar dó adhradh agus glóir
mar aon leis an Athair agus leis an Mac:
is é a labhair trí na fáithe.
Creidim san aon Eaglais naofa, chaitliceach, aspalda.
Adhmhaím an t-aon bhaisteadh amháin
chun maithiúnas na bpeacaí.
Agus táim ag súil le haiséirí na marbh
agus le beatha an tsaoil atá le teacht.

Amen.


You would expect the above to be accurate but I have a problem with fíorDhia which I believe should be hyphenated just as Aon-Mhac is. The rule is that you must hyphenate so as not the have an uppercase letter in the middle of a word.
Nua-Ghaeilge is a well-established example.

A quick Google gives me the following http://www.knocklyonparish.ie/faith_spi ... y/an-chre/
Again there are problems.
adhrach should be adhradh
ba é differs from the version above which says is é (past tense v present tense - I think there's a logic to both in the context).
Aonmhac differs from the version above. I prefer it.


An Chré

Creidim in aon Dia amháin,
an tAthair uilechumhachtach,
a rinne neamh agus talamh
agus an uile ní sofheicthe agus dofheicthe.
Agus in aon Tiarna amháin,
Íosa Críost, Aonmhac Dé,
an té a rugadh ón Athair
sula raibh aon saol ann.
Dia ó Dhia, solas ó sholas,
fíorDhia ó fhíor-Dhia;
an té a gineadh agus nach ndearnadh,
agus atá d’aonsubstaint
leis an Athair;
is tríd a rinneadh an uile ní.
Ar ár son-na an cine daonna,
agus ar son ár slánaithe,
thuirling sé ó neamh.
Ionchollaíodh le cumhacht an Spiorad Naoimh é
i mbroinn na Maighdine Muire
agus ghlac sé nádúr daonna.
Céasadh ar an gcrois é freisin ar ár son;
d’fhulaing sé páis faoi Phontius Píoláit
agus adhlacadh é.
D’aiséirigh an treas lá de réir na scrioptúr;
chuaigh suas ar neamh;
tá ina shuí ar dheis an Athar.
Tiocfaidh sé an athuair faoi ghlóir
le breithiúnas a thabhairt ar bheo agus ar mhairbh,
agus ní bheidh deireadh lena ríocht.
Creidim sa Spiorad Naomh,
Tiarna agus bronntóir na beatha,
an té a ghluaiseann ón Athair agus ón Mac.
Tugtar dó adhrach agus glóir
mar aon leis an Athair agus leis an Mac:
ba é a labhair trí na fáithe.
Creidim san aon Eaglais naofa, chaitliceach, aspalda.
Adhmhaím an t-aon bhaisteadh amháin
chun maithiúnas na bpeacaí.
Agus táim ag súil le haiséirí na marbh
agus le beatha an tsaoil atá le teacht.


Amen.


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PostPosted: Mon 02 Apr 2012 1:12 pm 
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Scooby wrote:
Here's what's in the missalette from my local Catholic church in Ireland:

An Chré

Creidim in aon Dia amháin,
an tAthair uilechumhachtach
a rinne neamh agus talamh
agus an uile ní sofheicthe agus dofheicthe.
Agus in aon Tiarna amháin, Íosa Críost, Aon-Mhac Dé,
an té a rugadh ón Athair sula raibh aon saol ann,
Dia ó Dhia, solas ó sholas, fíorDhia ó fhíorDhia;
an té a gineadh agus nach ndearnadh,
agus atá d'aon substaint leis an Athair;
is tríd a rinneadh an uile ní.
Ar ár son-na an cine daonna,
agus ar son ár slánaithe,
thuirling sé ó neamh.
Ionchollaíodh le cumhacht an Spioraid Naoimh é
i mbroinn na Maighdine Muire
agus ghlac sé nádúr daonna.
Céasadh ar an gcrois é freisin ar ár son;
d’fhulaing sé páis faoi Phontius Píoláit
agus adhlacadh é.
D’aiséirigh an treas lá de réir na scrioptúr;
chuaigh suas ar neamh;
tá ina shuí ar dheis an Athar.
Tiocfaidh sé an athuair faoi ghlóir
le breithiúnas a thabhairt ar bheo agus ar mhairbh,
agus ní bheidh deireadh lena ríocht.
Creidim sa Spiorad Naomh,
Tiarna agus bronntóir na beatha,
an té a ghluaiseann ón Athair agus ón Mac.
Tugtar dó adhradh agus glóir
mar aon leis an Athair agus leis an Mac:
is é a labhair trí na fáithe.
Creidim san aon Eaglais naofa, chaitliceach, aspalda.
Adhmhaím an t-aon bhaisteadh amháin
chun maithiúnas na bpeacaí.
Agus táim ag súil le haiséirí na marbh
agus le beatha an tsaoil atá le teacht.

Amen.




Yes. :good: That is the version said at Mass here too.

But I think the shorter version is for home use. It's been so long since I used the prayers I learnt as a child that I don't remember now.

Is there a long and short version in English?

_________________
___________________________________________________________

It is recommended that you always wait for three to agree on a translation.
I speak Connemara Irish, and my input will often reflect that.
I will do an mp3 file on request for short translations.

___________________________________________________________


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PostPosted: Mon 02 Apr 2012 2:55 pm 
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That's the Nicene Creed. The Apostle's Creed (which is actually older than the Nicene) is considerably shorter.

I don't have it in Irish, but here it is in English, for comparison:

Quote:
I believe in God the Father, Almighty, Maker of heaven and earth:

And in Jesus Christ, his only begotten Son, our Lord:

Who was conceived by the Holy Ghost, born of the Virgin Mary:

Suffered under Pontius Pilate; was crucified, dead and buried: He descended into hell:

The third day he rose again from the dead:

He ascended into heaven, and sits at the right hand of God the Father Almighty:

From thence he shall come to judge the quick and the dead:

I believe in the Holy Ghost:

I believe in the holy catholic church: the communion of saints:

The forgiveness of sins:

The resurrection of the body:

And the life everlasting. Amen.


The longer Nicene Creed was an attempt by the church to elaborate on tenets of the Apostles' Creed in response to what they considered at the time to be various heresies. For those who may not be familiar with it, here's one version of the Nicene Creed (wording can vary a bit, depending on local usage and on one's particular church. The version below is the one most commonly used by Episcopal churches in the U.S...it differs slightly from the one I learned in the Catholic church.):

Quote:
We believe in one God, the Father, the Almighty maker of heaven and earth, of all that is, seen and unseen.

I believe in one Lord, Jesus Christ, the only Son of God, eternally begotten of the Father, God from God, Light from Light, true God from true God, begotten, not made, of one Being with the Father. Through him all things were made. For us and for our salvation he came down from heaven: by the power of the Holy Spirit he became incarnate from the Virgin Mary, and was made man. For our sake he was crucified under Pontius Pilate; he suffered death and was buried. On the third day he rose again in accordance with the Scriptures; he ascended into heaven and is seated at the right hand of the Father. He will come again in glory to judge the living and the dead, and his kingdom will have no end.

I believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of Life, who proceeds from the Father and the Son. With the Father and the Son he is worshipped and glorified. He has spoken through the Prophets.

I believe in one holy catholic and apostolic Church. We acknowledge one baptism for the forgiveness of sins. We look for the resurrection of the dead, and the life of the world to come. Amen


In the Anglican Church we use the Apostles' Creed for baptisms and at services such as Morning Prayer or Evensong, but the Nicene for Mass.

They're not prayers, by the way, but statements of faith.

Redwolf


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