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 Post subject: Autonomous form
PostPosted: Mon 07 May 2012 8:22 am 
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Can somebody give me some examples? Ive just realised my lovely grammar book has taught me all the endings in the autonomous form, but i have just realised I dont know what that means!! Examples of use please...


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 Post subject: Re: Autonomous form
PostPosted: Mon 07 May 2012 9:48 am 
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They are used to express "one" or "someone" or what is passive in English in certain cases:

Briseadh 'n fhuinneog = One broke the window / someone broke the window / The window has been broken...

Chonacthas é = he was seen / one saw him.

It's used when you don't know who does the action.

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Is fearr Gaeilg na Gaeltaċta ná Gaeilg ar biṫ eile
Agus is í Gaeilg Ġaoṫ Doḃair is binne
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 Post subject: Re: Autonomous form
PostPosted: Mon 07 May 2012 10:31 am 
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Lughaidh wrote:
It's used when you don't know who does the action.
or when you just don't want to own up that it was you...... :twisted:

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Is foghlaimeoir mé. I am a learner. DEFINITELY wait for others to confirm and/or improve.
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 Post subject: Re: Autonomous form
PostPosted: Mon 07 May 2012 12:35 pm 
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It's also sort of like the abstract "they" in English (or at least Hiberno-English) as in

They speak Irish in that area = Labhraítear Gaelainn sa cheantar so.

Where the "they" isn't refering to any specific group.

I gCill Ghallagáin, bristear na clocha agus cuirtear píosaí desna clochaibh isteach sna cléibhíníbh a gheibhtear sa tsráidbhaile sin = In Kilgalligan, they break the stones and put the pieces of the stones into the little baskets which can be found in that village
(Made up sentences, people in Kilgalligan don't really do this.)

So here you can see it translates into "they" or a passive sentence in English, depending on its use.

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The dialect I use is Munster Irish, particularly Cork Irish, so words or phrases I use
might not be correct for other areas.:D

Ar sgáth a chéile a mhairid na daoine, lag agus láidir, uasal is íseal


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 Post subject: Re: Autonomous form
PostPosted: Mon 07 May 2012 1:58 pm 
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While it's often translated with the passive in Engllsh, as Lughaidh says, it isn't the same as the passive.
You can't translate 'The window was broken by X/He was seen by X' into Irish as 'Briseadh an fhuinneog ag X/Chonacthas é ag X'. That would be a mortal sin - though one being committed by some native speakers and by some translators on official websites. :/


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 Post subject: Re: Autonomous form
PostPosted: Mon 07 May 2012 8:13 pm 
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Cheers that cleared it up for me


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 Post subject: Re: Autonomous form
PostPosted: Mon 07 May 2012 8:50 pm 
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Quote:
While it's often translated with the passive in Engllsh, as Lughaidh says, it isn't the same as the passive.
You can't translate 'The window was broken by X/He was seen by X' into Irish as 'Briseadh an fhuinneog ag X/Chonacthas é ag X'. That would be a mortal sin - though one being committed by some native speakers and by some translators on official websites


I'm not sure it's that wrong. I think I've seen it in old books written by irreproachable native speakers...

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Is fearr Gaeilg na Gaeltaċta ná Gaeilg ar biṫ eile
Agus is í Gaeilg Ġaoṫ Doḃair is binne
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 Post subject: Re: Autonomous form
PostPosted: Thu 24 May 2012 5:09 pm 
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Lughaidh wrote:
Quote:
While it's often translated with the passive in Engllsh, as Lughaidh says, it isn't the same as the passive.
You can't translate 'The window was broken by X/He was seen by X' into Irish as 'Briseadh an fhuinneog ag X/Chonacthas é ag X'. That would be a mortal sin - though one being committed by some native speakers and by some translators on official websites


I'm not sure it's that wrong. I think I've seen it in old books written by irreproachable native speakers...


Saorbhriathar + ag.... A Lughaidh, nach sin sampla den Bhéarlachas faoina mbíonn tú ag caitheamh anuas ar dhaoine? An úsáidfeá féin é? Chuir mé ceist ar bheirt chainteoirí dúchais cad é a mbarúil fá dtaobh dó. Dá gcluinfeá iad! ("Dia ár sábháil!" srl.) Cé hiad na irreproachable native speakers ar úsáidíodh 'saorbh.+ag' acu :mrgreen: ? An cuimhneach leat sampla ar bith de 's.bh.+ag' a chonacthas agat :mrgreen: ins na leabharthaí sin?

(Léigh mé áit inteacht go n-úsáidtí le ins an Ghaeilge chlasaiceach le "gníomhaí an shaorbhriathair" a chur in iúl, ach sin ceist eile.)


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 Post subject: Re: Autonomous form
PostPosted: Thu 24 May 2012 6:50 pm 
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Quote:
Saorbhriathar + ag.... A Lughaidh, nach sin sampla den Bhéarlachas faoina mbíonn tú ag caitheamh anuas ar dhaoine?


má úsáideann seanchainteoirí dúchais é, ní Béarlachas é, dar liom.

Quote:
An úsáidfeá féin é?


chan úsáideochainn nó níl mé cleachta leis... Deirim na rudaí ar dhóigh eile.

Quote:
Chuir mé ceist ar bheirt chainteoirí dúchais cad é a mbarúil fá dtaobh dó. Dá gcluinfeá iad! ("Dia ár sábháil!" srl.) Cé hiad na irreproachable native speakers ar úsáidíodh 'saorbh.+ag' acu :mrgreen: ?


nárbh é sin S. Ó Grianna nó duine ineacht mar sin? Níl cuimhne agam. Caithfidh mé cuartú...

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Is fearr Gaeilg na Gaeltaċta ná Gaeilg ar biṫ eile
Agus is í Gaeilg Ġaoṫ Doḃair is binne
:)


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 Post subject: Re: Autonomous form
PostPosted: Thu 24 May 2012 10:59 pm 
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Briseadh an fhuinneog ag X - I don't see how that could finish correctly.

Chonacthas/Facas é ag X - That looks ok to me. He was seen.. breaking the window etc. But it doesn't say who saw him.

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It is recommended that you always wait for three to agree on a translation.
I speak Connemara Irish, and my input will often reflect that.
I will do an mp3 file on request for short translations.

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